"Drupal not good for government websites"
Recently in an article (Dutch) in Dutch publication "Webwereld", Drupal advocate and developer Bèr Kessels stated that while Drupal is an awesome CMS, it is not a good fit for government websites and other big projects. An interesting statement for someone from the Drupal camp to make. While Bèr has some valid points, his statements are a bit too generic for my liking.
I am not a fan of Drupal. Nor am I a big fan of Joomla. But both have their place within the PHP and CMS ecosystem. And there are many situations where clearly one of these tools is the best for the job. For big custom projects, obviously my choice would be either symfony (or Symfony2), or Zend Framework. Or well, any web application framework for that matter.
And this is also a (valid) point that Bèr makes in his article. For big projects, web application frameworks are usually a much better fit. They are made to fit the needs of developers, not end users, making them much easier to use for developers of big custom projects. A very valid point, if you ask me.
Less valid already is the point he is trying to make that you need to spend a lot of time to remove the functionality that Drupal offers out of the box. Sure, Drupal offers a lot of functionality out of the box that most projects might not need. Most of it can easily be disabled with a couple of clicks or a change in the configuration. Even if you'd need to spend a week on this (which is already way too much I think), given we're talking about huge custom projects (think 3-6 month development time at least), that's still not a lot of time. You might have to spend more time getting a new project in a web application project set up to a point that is comparable to the standard Drupal installation.
That is all good and fine though. I can understand both arguments, whether I can agree with them or not. Bèr concludes his article with "The right tool, for the right job". The funny thing is, though, that his article is actually advocating the opposite. He is claiming that Drupal is not a good fit for government websites, period. And that just strikes me as odd. He states you should use the right tool for the right job, but then explicitly excludes one of the available tools for a huge selection of jobs.
To Bèr and any other developer, I would like to say: Look at what you need to build, and then make your consideration of the tools carefully. Combine tools if you need to, look at the project, look at your project team, and then decide what you're going to do. That is the way any project should be approached, whether your customer is government, a bank, a startup or the little village pet shop.
March 22, 2011 - tags: drupal, open source, cms, framework, php, symfony, opinion, the right tool, zend framework
Comments
Bèr Kessels: The title "Drupal verkeerde keus voor overheidssites" was not my choice. The original title was "Er zijn betere alternatieven voor Drupal." (there are better alternatives for Drupal). That title was online for less then 15 minutes, the editors chose a more provoking title. I, frankly, don't really mind, because I assumed my article stressed the point that I am making is about "Large enterprise" or "large governmental" sites.
Exceptions can be found, but nearly all of these "large" projects are large, because they require substantial development. some may be large, because these is gigantic overhead, true.
And in those rare cases, I stress, Drupal is a good and solid solution. A perfect fit, maybe even.
I did not say that Drupal is *never* a good option in *any* governmental site. Just that as soon as one needs to start developing, Drupal becomes less and less a good choice.
And we all know the amount of development your average enterprise or governmental project requires.
March 22, 2011
left: Nice to see a comment here from you Bèr. You say you did not state Drupal is *never* a good option in *any* governmental site, but if I read the article, that's the message that comes across to me. You nowhere state that there are situations where it might be a good fit. Obviously, with the current title, that makes the interpretation of the article that Drupal is never a good choice. Your explanation of the title does make a difference however, because with the old title, definitely the whole article would have a different meaning.But yeah, I definitely agree that Drupal is not the best solution if there's a lot of development work. But again, as I mentioned in my blogpost, it's not just about the technology. It's about the combination of project, technology and also your development team. If you have 5 awesome Drupal developers, then Drupal may actually be a good choice
March 22, 2011
Kfir Breger-Speetjens: Although, in principal there might be a government site to which drupal is a good fit. I suspect that in realty it just doesn't happen.I agree with you that you must never close a certain solution, but than again, have you, when considering a solution to a government site, thought about wordpress? Probably not, and most likely also for a good reason (nothing against wordpress, its a wonderful system). If someone asked you if you think wrodpress was a possible system to build government sites in, I would guess you would say "Probably not". Yet if there ever came a government project that is something of a blog, you would consider it.
My point is, we are all making pre-decisions on which systems to consider quickly, then look at the few that are over more seriously. What Ber is saying, I believe, is that generally drupal is one of those systems that should go out in the first round. I have yet to see in my, limited I must add, experience a government website that is a better fit for drupal than a framework. Though such sites may exist (I suspect the whitehouse.gov is just such a site), I would say, like Ber does, that Drupal is not a good fit for a government website.
March 22, 2011
fschaap: Well, the argumentation here is coming from the developer side. Sure, when you need to develop a lot of custom work, going with a framework is an appealing choice for the developer.But if I am the client (and I _am_ the client paying for a new government website) there is an aweful lot to say for going with a cms like Drupal: I want as much functionality as possible with as little custom work as possible and as a result as little vendor (developer) lock in as possible.
Going for a cms like Drupal there is a baseline functionality I know I will be getting and if I am a good client, I will settle for 80% of my vision realized with off the shelf modules/core functionality, instead of forcing the developer to realize 100% of my wishes with loads of custom work.
Now, as a client, I'd really like more Drupal shops to strongly advise their clients to stick to almost exclusively to already existing functionality and modules AND to force their own developers to develop as little custom code as possible, even if they have to sell the client on the 80% vs 100% vision.
But developers will be developers and I can't fault Bèr for wanting to code elegant solutions with a framework for complex situations.
But also know that for pretty much all government agencies that I know, realizing 80% of what you dream of for your web presence is already 50% better than what you have now. Add the government bonuses for going open source, open standards and not getting a vendor lock in and you're actually doing great!
March 22, 2011
Bèr Kessels: » If you have 5 awesome Drupal developers, then» Drupal may actually be a good choice
That brings up a point, which I deliberately ignored in this discussion. Till now
The drupal-community has a severe shortage of good Drupal-developers. That is good for the developers around. But bad for the clients.
Right now, a team of 5 awesome Drupal developers is simply a pipe-dream.
Just as much as getting "five experienced Rails-developers", "five Django-ninja's" or "five awesome Zend-gurus". Allthough I expect the latter to be the simplest of all.
March 22, 2011
Steve Purkiss: I am astounded that people don't think Drupal is a good fit for government use. The Drupal community spends a lots of time collaborating on applications which work on top of the Drupal core.If Government spent more time on collaborating on their own solutions using those applications and core as a base, we wouldn't end up in situations as we do now where thousands of contracts have to be negotiated for just one local council had to here in the UK.
By collaborating on solutions based on generic applications with a solid core (Drupal), you are providing a path for organic growth of your applications. If you build on web frameworks you often have to reinvent the wheel, so Drupal gives you a head start.
As the software models are the same across the world for such things as doctors, nurses, patients, hospitals, etc. then I do not see how competition can beat co-operation as a long term solution, even if it means living with something you may have to dedicate more time than you thought too, but surely software by the people for the people would be a sweet solution? Then we can get on with innovating more rapidly and using our time for something mire exciting than another webform, like working out how to terraform other planets etc.
March 22, 2011
fschaap: Thanks Steve... I forgot to mention that reusing (through cooperation) is another forte of not going with a custom solution. An argument that is especially important in (semi)government areas of work. There is some strong sharing/cooperation around Typo3 for city/council websites in the Netherlands already and the local governments using Drupal want to organize something similar for Drupal.March 22, 2011
Chris Pliakas: I have personally assisted in implementing Drupal sites in 5 US government agencies. Most of the time the development team does not have a lot of Drupal experience, if any at all. I was involved in both training and architecting the solutions, and now each team is self sufficient and working on additional Drupal projects inside of government.I think that this article highlights the difference between developers and architects. A developer looks at the technology at hand and evaluates things from a very low, technical level. The developer will write some slick code, produce a fine website, and the customer will be happy with the solution initially. The problem is that this approach lacks vision, as it only satisfies existing and pre-existing requirement.
An architect will look towards the future, as he/she realizes that successful websites in the current marketplace need the ability to adapt to ever changing trends that might not even be defined yet. I fully admit that Drupal has many technical shortcomings, but it's open architecture and strong community help to provide flexible solutions that can adapt to the ever changing trends over time.
I see countless blogs written by developers with arguments / counter-arguments about using custom frameworks in favor of Drupal. What they fail to realize is that once the development team moves on or the scope of the project changes, their well-built application is ultimately dead in the water. Leveraging the work of others helps ensure that knowledge can more easily be transferred and adds longevity to web properties. From my experience in both Enterprise and Government, leveraging Drupal costs far less in the long run, even if there are situations where the initial investment might be higher.
To address Bèr's point about the lack of Drupal talent, organizations such as Acquia have great Drupal-related services and offer many trainings to bring talented developers into a community. To assert that building a custom application on top of a framework is a better solution is simply throwing the baby out with the bath water. The result is that only a handful of people are knowledgable about the application, and that is the best recipe for an unsustainable application.
March 22, 2011
Alex Bronstein: From Bèr: "Just that as soon as one needs to start developing, Drupal becomes less and less a good choice."From left: "But yeah, I definitely agree that Drupal is not the best solution if there's a lot of development work."
I disagree with this generalization. Even for websites requiring 10,000 or 100,000 person hours of custom development, Drupal can be the right choice. It all depends on what is needed from that custom development effort.
March 22, 2011
Kieran Lal: http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-state-and-federal-agencies-governmentKieran
March 22, 2011
Bèr Kessels: «What they fail to realize is that once the development team moves on or the scope of the project changes, their well-built application is ultimately dead in the water. Leveraging the work of others helps ensure that knowledge can more easily be transferred and adds longevity to web properties.»First, let us please not talk in such an almost arrogant, paternising way about "they", those unknowing, hidden-away, developers. Those Who know not how the Real World works. Drupal has a large, technical base; people who know very well how to raise venture capital, run projects and manage to see the larger picture.
The statement that some custom built system is "dead in the water" has little to do with chosen technology. I have helped countless Drupal 4.x, 5 sites migrate up. Most of the time, these sites were exactly that: "dead in the water", often (think flexinode) their content was "lost" but for a complex migration. Mostly upgrading means "rebuild from scratch".
While we also see Drupal sites in a continuous deplyment cycle, I daresay it is mostly "custom" or "framwork-based" sites that do so. If not for the very reason that in Drupal there is no proper, well designed deployment-cycle in the first place. In short: Drupal does not at all guarantee continuation any more then a framework does.
«http://groups.drupal.org/drupal-state-and-federal-agencies-government»
There, indeed, are countless examples of using Drupal in enterprise and governments.
I cannot speak about the u.s. where this largely takes part, because I really don't know about the ins- and outs of the project-culture in there.
I do know the Dutch system and requirements, though. Which is why I deliberately kept this discussion local, in Dutch, untill it appeared here, where I now try to give some perspective.
The Dutch larger governmental projects require and demand complex workflows. Demand integration with active-Directory, Sharepoint-servers, CRMs and so on and so on. Stuff that is not impossible in Drupal, but at the least very inefficient: development- and management-wise.
Such projects, is my statement, simply don't benefit enough from the "large community" or the "large subset of available modules" to counterweight the downside of not having well-worked out libraries, layers, abstractions and knowledge.
March 23, 2011
Steve Purkiss: "The Dutch larger governmental projects require and demand complex workflows. Demand integration with active-Directory, Sharepoint-servers, CRMs and so on and so on. Stuff that is not impossible in Drupal, but at the least very inefficient: development- and management-wise."I think you'll find it's not only the Dutch who require this, that's all I'm saying.
March 23, 2011
left: Kfir: Wordpress could just as well be a good match. The thing is: I'm not going to exclude any tool for any project. It is something you have to determine on a per-project basis. I've seen government sites built on Wordpress. For the type of project, it was a perfect fit.fschaap: I disagree with your statement that getting custom code creates a vendor/developer lock-in. Perhaps there are developers that create code in such a way that you're locked to their services, but truely, you made the choice for the wrong developer then.
If I look at my projects, most of what I do is based on either symfony or Zend Framework. When I build a project on either framework, I adhere to the standard structure and conventions. This allows my client to take my code and move to another developer if they feel they don't want or need my services anymore. Anyone who knows the Zend Framework or symfony standards and conventions will be easily able to pick up on my code. And I never use a license that locks clients into using my services.
Bèr: Coming from a symfony and Zend Framework background, I can tell you that finding good developers for any tool is currently really hard. Perhaps ZF is harder than others, because everyone and their grandma say they are good and experienced ZF developers, yet a lot of them are actually not.
Steve: I highly disagree with your statement that frameworks force you to reinvent the wheel. A lot of developers do that, but only because they are very much tied to a certain mindset of not using libraries that are not in the framework, which is a shame. I refer to my above statement to Bèr
I think the way you speak about Drupal is very similar to the way I think about symfony or ZF.
Chris: I won't take your remarks personally, but I do have to state that I am involved both as developer and as architect in projects. I do look at the big picture, and usually decide to work with a framework over working with Drupal, exactly because of that big picture. I think Drupal for you is very similar to frameworks to me: They contain core functionality that you need, and allow you to extend it for specific needs
March 23, 2011
Chris Pliakas: Bèr: "First, let us please not talk in such an almost arrogant, paternising way about "they", those unknowing, hidden-away, developers."Let me say this... my background and strength is as a developer. If I were being condescending then I would be taking a dig at myself, many of my colleagues, and the majority of the people who are innovators in all CMS / Frameworks mentioned in these discussions. If I am doing my job as a developer, then I am focused on the task at hand and don't necessarily have the time to understand the big picture outside of the larger application I am developing. Big picture is not just about the website. There are political considerations, roadmaps, business plans, lots of other things completely outside the scope of what a developer does.
Let's give a concrete example. Recently when I was working in a government agency, one of the stake holders who was very high up in the chain and not involved in the day to day development of the site raised security as an issue one month before launch. Since we were using Drupal, we were able to leverage documentation, information on the security team, security publications, and commercial offerings from Acquia to pass new organizational requirements that didn't exist when the project started. Using a custom framework you could very well build a site that is just as secure a Drupal application, but for political reasons a developer saying "I know security and will build the site in a secure manner" just doesn't cut it.
Kfir: My point is NOT that "you are developers and not an architect". That would be flat out arrogant and a stupid argument to try to make. The point is that every conversation I have seen on this topic focuses purely on technical people, such as the developer, and not the stake holders. If we fail to mention the stake holders in discussions about whether to use Drupal, WP, Framework X, BobX, whatever, then we as a technical community have completely missed the boat. In the example above if we had build on top of the Zend Framework (which I love), we would have been SOL and the project would have been dropped. Again, a political issue that has less to do with the technical merits of the framework / platform, but vitally important in deciding which technology to use.
I have very strong opinions based on my experiences, but I want to reiterate that I respect the differing opinions here as well as the technical expertise of the people holding them.
March 23, 2011
Bèr Kessels: Chris Pliakas:Thanks for clarifying your point re: Developers. I misunderstood, and my reaction about excluding developers from a discussion was therefore misplaced.
First a technical issue.
«Using a custom framework you could very well build a site that is just as secure a Drupal application, but for political reasons a developer saying "I know security and will build the site in a secure manner" just doesn't cut it.» As Left pointed out several times too, that is simply not true.
In practice, I have seen horrendous Drupal-implementations. With code that no team (ever) could leverage. A good developer will build good, standardised code. I have seen beautifull Drupal-modules that many a drupal-developer would not know how to use, because it was all OO, using PEAR and leveraging new PHP5 OO features all over the place. While I can open any Rails project, and within an hour will know how it works, what it implements and where things are (because, in a Rails project, things are always in the same place, named in the same way and developed after the exact same methodologies). I am certain that I will come across horrendous rails projects in due time. But that, in the end is what it is about: having developers that adhere to standards and build good stuff.
I daresay that a framework will, in practice, be more standardised then an average Drupalsite. Drupal does a poor job on code standardisation. Its abstraction is almost none-existant (though in D7 improved, with a.o. PDO) and its "weird own Drupal-ways of doing stuff" is often very far from what people are used to. Then, in addition, there are often many ways to achieve the same. It is very funny to look into Drupal-questions on stackoverflow. Many answers start with "There are X ways to do this: you can either....". While most python-answers go like "use X and put it in Y, using Z."
A framework (a proper one) will have this standardisation of methods, code-standards, implementation standards and so on, at its very core.
In essence many framework is not much more then a "set of standards and agreements made between all those using that framework".
I bring up these examples to illustrate the error in the reasoning that a project like Drupal brings standardisation. I /can/, but that depends entirely on the developers, not on the product.
March 23, 2011
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